Roger Casale, one of the founders and the driving force behind the New Europeans People’s Forum, has built a distinguished career spanning business, academia, and politics, both in the UK and internationally. He holds a Master of Arts in International Affairs, having studied at Brasenose College, Oxford, and the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
Casale’s contributions to international relations have been widely recognized. In 2009, he was honored with the Commendatore dell’Ordine al Merito della Repubblica Italiana by the President of Italy, Giorgio Napolitano, for his outstanding services to British-Italian relations.
A former Member of Parliament and Parliamentary Private Secretary in the UK Foreign Office, Casale has consistently advocated for strengthening democratic values and protecting human rights. On December 11-12, 2024, Casale participated as a distinguished panelist at the international conference “Defending Democracy and Human Rights in the Face of War, Nationalism, and Authoritarianism”, held in Skopje, North Macedonia.
Representing the New Europeans People’s Forum, he strongly supported the conference’s initiatives aimed at bolstering democratic resilience and countering authoritarianism in a time of global challenges.
In this exclusive interview, Casale reflects on the key trends in Europe and beyond that are shaping democracy and human rights. He also shares his insights into the implications of Russia’s aggression against Ukraine, underlining the importance of international solidarity in defending democratic principles. Stay tuned for Casale’s thought-provoking perspectives on navigating an increasingly complex global landscape.
XHABIR DERALLA / CIVIL MEDIA: Over a 1,000 days of brutal war – brutal aggression of Russia against Ukraine – terrible wars in the Middle East, insecurities, crisis, tensions in Georgia, in Moldova, and now in Romania, and many other places. A tremendous power shift in the United States, and many other crisis currently emerging. Mr. Casale, what is going on?
ROGER CASALE / NEW EUROIPEAN PEOPLE’S FORUM> Well, Xhabir, we are going on. We are going on – you and me and everybody watching – life is going on. Life is continuing. Life is continuing also in Ukraine in these very dark hours.
The world is in a very dark place. It’s a very dark moment, but we have to have confidence in ourselves as citizens and remember that life – despite all this, the most terrible, tragic circumstances – can go on, does go on, will go on.
We must take heart from that, and we must also reflect on what we can do in our own lives, in our own families, in our own communities, and as citizens. What responsibility we can take as citizens, to make sure that life goes on, that we not only survive as a society and as a world, but that we can thrive and develop and grow again.
So, I want to be realistic. I don’t say this is an optimistic statement. I think it’s a realistic statement. There is always something that we can do. Life goes on, we go on, we must go on, we will go on… We must do what we can to not be overwhelmed by the darkness, but to be positive and constructive and to live our lives in the best way we can.
CIVIL MEDIA: This is an appealing message that you are delivering here. However, political parties of the far right are on the rise. People want to see their chances with another type of forces in the society from the far-right political parties that are in an apparent coalition with the Russian dictator in the Kremlin. So, maybe the people want exactly that or is it something else going on. The rise of the far right in Europe is really very aggressive, very dynamic. Democracy is in retreat. So, what is going on with the society? What do you think the societies and the progressive forces in the society could and should do in defense of democracy and human rights? This, opposed to the question that the societies maybe want exactly authoritarian regimes in power, a strong hand as a substitute to human rights and human dignity and freedoms.
CASALE: Well, you asked the question – what is it that people want? What is it that that you want, what is it that I want, what is it that everybody wants? We want a better life! We want a better life materially. People are concerned about the cost of living. We want more security and perhaps most of all we want our freedom. I don’t think people are stupid. I think they know what they want and you talk about the fire rise of the far right.
Well, there are very powerful forces at play. I think that there are emotions involved in politics too, as well as voting for a particular reason. I think we need to find out how to get what we want. You know, it’s easy sometimes to think that somebody can promise you something you say “that’s what I want” and then you know you vote for them and so that party can win the election. But after that they actually have to deliver what they’ve promised and that’s not the same thing as promising it in the first place. I think that many of the far-right parties who have been successful electorally are going to actually struggle to deliver what people want.
Maybe nobody can deliver what people want today and so people will get more and more frustrated, and more and more afraid. That is an opportunity for the far right to play on those negative emotions. I want to appeal to people to be positive and to think about what they want, to articulate what they want, and to say what they want. You can do opinion polls but they have their limitations.
What I’m in favor of is actually citizen assemblies. Having the opportunity of bringing people together, holding a space where people can come together with different life experiences and bring their own experiences, fears and hopes for the future, their own ideas about what policies are needed and what could work – to discuss that together, not necessarily with the aim of all arriving at the same point of view.
Nobody has a monopoly of wisdom, but everybody has a point of view, everybody has an experience. I think, in these very challenging times, we need to see that as a resource to really calm things down if possible. To create a space where people feel that their experience and their point of view are valued, that they’re being listened to, and to do this in humility. To do this in a way where citizens feel that they are equal to one another and they don’t have a politician telling them what’s good for them or looking down at them, or the feeling that a politician is somehow in a privileged position compared to their position. Because this creates a lot of resentment, and again a lot of anger and that’s a negative emotion.
The far right are very skillful at playing on very negative emotions. We need to find a way of creating some more positive, constructive emotions, and actually elevating the citizen. You have to go about that in the right way. You have to create spaces where we can have a different kind of public conversation, where we’re not attacking and criticizing each other all the time, but where we actually try to see some good in other people even if they have not the same point of view as us.
I think the problem with just attacking the far right, just attacking the opponents is that you just polarize things even more. That is very helpful to the far right, to polarize things. They love doing that. They love provoking things and polarizing things, because at the end of the day they think that’s a fight they can win. What I’m saying is – we need to build the center back up again, we need to have a different kind of public conversation. We need to have more civility, more respect, more humility.
We need to recognize, these are very challenging times and in the end, we must find a solution together as a society and as a community. So, I’m asking myself, how can we actually bring people together. How can we hold a space where we can have a different quality of public conversation? Where everybody feels valued, where everyone can bring their experience, their knowledge and where at least we can find a way forward, where people feel that “it’s taken account of my point of view.”
You know, citizens are not stupid. They’re also adults. They’re grown-ups. They can take no for an answer if they have an explanation, but they want to be heard, they want to be taken seriously they want to be respected. I think there’s a lot of fear.
There’s a lot of resentment and that makes it easy for the far right to polarize. That’s really all they need to do, to keep stoking that sentiment, and so they put forward policies that they don’t really believe in, but that are going to help to fuel that negative emotion. Because it’s that negative emotion that is sustaining them in power. Once they’re in power they’ve got to actually deliver for people and they don’t really have policies to deliver, but they talk about things that get people in a negative space to vote for them.
So, I think what we need to do is try to create a different quality of public conversation that is less resentful, less fear-filled and where perhaps other solutions can emerge. By doing that, to build up the center of politics and to marginalize the extremists rather than playing into the hands of the extremists, which is what’s happening at the moment.
CIVIL MEDIA: As a former MP and active in the British policy and politics you have a lot of experience and a lot of advice to share with us. But are we really going to win only with a positive, constructive attitude, with humility, with finding ways to understand each other? We’re talking about very aggressive forces on the other side.
CASALE: Well, I don’t know whether we’re going to win that way, but I think it’s something that is absolutely necessary and it’s a place to start. I’m speaking to your audience, to people at home, and to people watching this in terms of – what we can do as citizens. I think, trying to engage in a more civil debate and take part in elections, and if there’s an opportunity for you to go to a citizen assembly – take it seriously. Try to get into different kinds of conversations about the way forward, avoid the temptation to polarize, to attack and be extreme. Of course, there are jobs for the government and the European Union if you’re a member state, and others to do that to regulate the public space and to make it safer.
We have to expose disinformation, we have to criminalize hate speech and hate crimes and so on, and meet that with a full force of the law. I think where this is coming from is a quality of the public debate, which is deteriorating. I think that one factor it’s not enough by itself. I agree with you, but one important factor that I want to emphasize is the need to improve the quality of public debate and to create the spaces, and I think that CIVIL, your organization is very good at doing that. I’d like to see more of that so that we don’t end up having conversations all the time with people who agree with us. We can actually have political discussion and debate across differences that doesn’t polarize.
When you mentioned that I was a member of parliament in the United Kingdom – you have a single member constituency, so you have the political debate and the different parties put up their candidates, but then you only have one MP elected for each area. Once you’re elected for that area, you represent the whole area. I was very proud when somebody might come to me in my area that I represented and they would say “Mr. C., I didn’t vote for you, but I think you’re doing a good job as my MP.”
Do you see what I mean? There’s a time when we have to have the political debate, but there’s also a time when we need to come together as a community, because there are things that divide us in society and there are things that unite us. The things that divide us are dividing us in more and more extreme ways, polarizing in violent ways. We have to calm that down.
Where people are breaking the law, we have to make them feel the full force of the law, but what I want to emphasize in this interview is – remember that there are things that unite us and let’s elevate those. What I hope can unite us is the idea that we need to have a civilized debate where I’m not going to say you’re a bad person just because you don’t agree with me. I’m going to be curious about why you believe what you believe. I’m going to listen to you, I’m going to engage with you, and I hope that that’s respect and equality, and humility that bring you to me. I bring in all my humility, my respect to you. I don’t have to agree with you. I just need to listen to you, understand you, and hope that you will do that in return.
We can do more of that. That does help to consolidate the center of politics and it reminds us that actually in the end there’s values, the rule of law, and human rights and democracy that we share, regardless of what our particular view on a certain issue is. We need to do much more to elevate the things that unite us. The things that divide us will always be there. We are too focused on all the things that divide us. What polarizes all the time leads things to the extreme and the people who benefit from that the most are the far right.
CIVIL MEDIA: These are all valuable thoughts and experiences, and could be expected to be seen in societies and countries that are still at peace, but we have a brutal war 1,000 km from Skopje, where we are having this conversation. Ukraine is in a stage of the war in which some powers in the West believe that this conflict should be frozen, whilst others, especially president Zelensky, believe that the real peace is only sustainable if Russia pulls out every single uh soldier from the sovereign, recognized territory of Ukraine. What do you think the West is doing and what it should be doing in order to secure sustainable peace? Many people rightfully believe that if Ukraine falls Europe falls. If Ukraine is freezing the conflict, that will only mean time and space for the regime in the Kremlin to go into new conquests. What do you think should happen?
CASALE: Yes. Well, first of all I just want to send a message of hope and solidarity to all the people of Ukraine on my own behalf and also on behalf of the organization I represent, European People’s Forum. We have been working closely with civil society groups in Ukraine since before the Russian invasion and of course all the time since. In fact, one of our directors is Lena Kush, she lives in Kyiv and she is the Secretary of the national Union of journalists in Kyiv, so we feel very close to them. I just want to say also that I know that that means a lot to them.
They’re in such a terrible situation with bombs falling on them, and I’m comfortable home in Italy where I live. I feel somehow very humbled by this and that my contribution is not significant and what comes back the other way means so much to us, to know that you’re there and you’re thinking about us and that solidarity is there.
So, I do appeal to your audience – don’t think that you know just one person sitting in safety thinking about Ukraine doesn’t make a difference. We must all continue to think about Ukraine and offer our solidarity. That means so much to the people who are in Ukraine at the moment. It really does mean a lot to them. That’s what they say to us and I find that very humbling, but it’s very important to share that.
The West must continue to support Ukraine and it is not just about Ukraine – it’s about the whole international system and it’s certainly about Europe. Ukraine cannot be allowed to fall. You cannot extinguish the desire – the burning desire – of the people for freedom. That is never going to fall, that is never going to crumble.
I don’t believe that Ukraine will ever fall. Territorially, I hope it will remain whole and integral. I think we have to do everything we can in the West to ensure that outcome. That is the only just outcome. If you want to have peace, you also need to have justice.
You make the hypothetical – what happens if Ukraine falls, will Europe fall. No, I don’t think Europe will fall if Ukraine falls, but a certain idea of Europe will fall and the idea that we have seen in the beautiful dreams of so many people in Ukraine, their attachment to the values of Europe.
You don’t have to be a passport holder of a European Union member state to be able to stand up and say “I’m a European!” You have to believe in the rule of law, in democracy, in human rights, in freedom, in a better world for you and your neighbors. I think you and most Ukrainians do. That’s why they are putting their lives on the line for and again, that’s very humbling. I think it needs to remind us, Europeans, and I’m a European, how important, how valuable, how existential those values are. For me, that’s what it is about. We want to see a European space that is safe for democracy, that is resilient. If you don’t have a space that’s safe for democracy, that’s also not a good place to do business, or to develop any human activity.
That’s why I say – if Ukraine falls, a certain idea of Europe will fall. It’s the right thing to do – to back Ukraine and ultimately it’s for the Ukrainian people to decide if they need to make a compromise in order to secure peace that’s not for me to comment on what’s got for them.
You asked me about Western policy. I think we have to back the Ukrainian people as long as they need our support, as much as we can and stand with them in the face of this. I don’t want to demonize people, but something evil has happened – yes, let me put it that way – and it has to be brought to an end.
Xhabir Deralla
Photo: Robert Atanasovski for CIVIL and #DefendingDemocracy
Video: Arian Mehmeti
CONFERENCE, FULL VIDEO, Streamed live on December 12, 2024:
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocracy, Panel 1: Democracy under Siege
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocracy, Panel 2: The Rise of Far-Right Nationalism
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocrcy Panel 3: Countering Authoritarianism
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocracy conference, Panel 4: Commitment to democracy
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocracy Conference (overall)
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PHOTO ARCHIVES: #DefendingDemocracy – workshop and meeting with the press
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#DefendingDemocracy PRESS CONFERENCE
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For more information on the Conference, please visit the special website DefendingDemocracy
