This episode of Eyes on Democracy offers a timely and insightful discussion between Roger Casale and Jabir Deralla, recorded in the aftermath of the Ukraine Recovery Conference 2025 in Rome. Against the backdrop of billions pledged in support and growing international momentum, the conversation explores what these commitments mean in practice—for Ukraine’s recovery and for Europe’s democratic future.
The episode highlights not only the political tone and symbolic power of the conference, but also the concrete steps needed to transform pledges into long-term resilience. From decentralized reconstruction and inclusive policy-making to the urgent need for European security reform, Casale and Deralla examine the interconnectedness of Ukraine’s fate and that of the continent. Their conversation calls for engaged, united, and forward-looking action from governments, civil society, and citizens alike.
Opening reflections: Solidarity and strategy in Rome
Jabir Deralla: Welcome, and thank you for joining us in this new conversation within the framework of the Defending Democracy Global Initiative. I’m Jabir Deralla, here with Roger Casale, and together we’ll be exploring the pressing challenges facing democracy and freedom today — from political backsliding to war, and from resistance to resilience and recovery.
This week, we turn to Rome, where the Ukraine Recovery Conference 2025 took place. The conference brought global attention back to Ukraine — not just as a battlefield, but as a nation rebuilding against all odds.
With €11 billion pledged, major institutional and private commitments made, and new security frameworks emerging — what does this all really mean for Ukraine’s future? And for Europe’s, for that matter?
Let’s take a closer look.
Roger, you attended a significant event hosted by the British Ambassador to Italy, alongside a number of dignitaries and international partners. Could you share some impressions of that gathering? What was the atmosphere like, and what did it signal in the broader context of the conference?
Roger Casale: Thank you, Jabir. As you can imagine, it was a beautiful summer evening in the gardens of Villa Wolkonsky, the British Ambassador’s residence in Rome. The tables were set on the lawn, with elegant canapés and wine, and people were arriving from all over the world — including Ukraine. Among the guests were the Deputy Economic Minister, the Mayor of Lviv, and many others representing business, civil society, and different facets of Ukrainian life.
Despite the beautiful setting, everyone was acutely aware of what was happening back in Kyiv at that very moment — bombs and drones raining down.
One conversation that stayed with me was with Valeriya, a mechanical engineer from Kyiv who came as part of a delegation seeking investment for reconstruction projects. I asked her how she felt being in such a peaceful and elegant setting. She said, “It’s wonderful to be here, but what really strikes me is seeing planes flying overhead. I can’t remember the last time I saw that. In Kyiv, the skies aren’t safe.”
There was a deep sense of solidarity in that garden — not just symbolic, but focused on practical commitment. The British Ambassador said, “We will be there for as long as it takes,” which is reassuring. But it also raises the question: how long will it take? And more importantly — what exactly needs to be done to achieve sustainable, long-term peace in Ukraine?
That’s why people had gathered — not just to show support, but to get to work. It was an evening filled with determination, with clear attention to the practical steps needed to support Ukraine in the months and years ahead.
Europe’s strategic frontlines: Ports, parliaments, and Ukraine
Jabir Deralla: As a former British MP yourself, I imagine you met some British Members of Parliament and other dignitaries at the reception. Did you have any conversations you’d be willing to share exclusively with our audience?
Roger Casale: Yes, absolutely. I spoke with several British MPs. One of them — whom we know well and who is a strong supporter of the Westminster Alliance for Ukraine — was actually co-hosting the event: Alex Sobel.
He often emphasizes the importance of addressing Russian assets. As the British Foreign Secretary, David Lammy, recently said — we need to move from freezing Russian assets to seizing them. And as President Zelensky himself later echoed at the conference, it’s time to go beyond using just the profits from frozen assets — we need to use the assets themselves. That was a key focus of our discussion.
I also had a very productive conversation with Emanuele Loperfido, the Chair of the Italian Foreign Affairs Committee in the Chamber of Deputies — he’s from Udine, in the northeast of Italy near Trieste. He was interested in the work of the Westminster Alliance for Ukraine and expressed strong support. He even invited me to visit both Udine and Trieste to explore long-term strategic planning for Ukraine’s recovery.
Trieste, historically a key port for Central Europe, is already preparing to become a major logistical hub for Ukraine’s reconstruction. He was eager for me to see the preparations firsthand and help connect that work with our broader network.
Overall, the reception was a very productive opportunity to engage with the kind of people we’re working to bring together through the Westminster Alliance — especially MPs from the E5 group: Poland, France, Germany, Italy, and the UK.
From war to vision: Building the new Ukraine
Jabir Deralla: That’s all extraordinarily important, Roger. Thank you for sharing these details — they rarely make it into the press, yet they’re essential for audiences to understand the broader context and the process behind it all. It’s not always straightforward, as we both know.
Looking now at the conference itself — what struck you most about this year’s Ukraine Recovery Conference in Rome? Not just in terms of the numbers, which are indeed staggering, but in terms of its political tone and symbolic weight?
Roger Casale: The political tone was very positive. It was significant to have both the President of Ukraine and the First Lady present. She, by the way, spoke extremely well and made a strong impact — not only by emphasizing the physical and economic damage to Ukraine, but by calling attention to the human cost.
She talked about trauma, the emotional toll, the stress, the injuries sustained by those on the front lines, and the importance of rebuilding not just infrastructure, but people. “If we rebuild the people,” she said, “we will rebuild the country.” That really stayed with me.
There was also a strong sense of the new Ukraine beginning to emerge — even while the war is ongoing. Much like the post-war settlement after World War II, which was envisioned during the war itself, Ukraine’s future is being actively shaped right now.
This isn’t just about defending Ukraine — it’s about making space for a new Ukraine to emerge. And that work is already happening: reforms, strategic thinking, and international coordination are underway as part of the EU accession process.
Ukraine is not only surviving — it is becoming stronger. And I believe we’ll see not just a new Ukraine after this war, but a new Europe as well. The future of Ukraine is the future of Europe — and vice versa. You can’t separate the two. That was the sense in the room: deep solidarity, and a moment where Europe felt more united than ever.
First Lady Olena Zelenska: Running just to stand still
Jabir Deralla: That really feels important, Roger. Everything you just described about the conference — it carries both urgency and optimism.
But I know you’re a philosophical skeptic, even as you’re also a committed optimist and fighter for these causes. So let me ask: are we hearing only bold speeches right now, or are we witnessing genuine commitment? Just a brief impression — it doesn’t have to be definitive, but what’s your gut feeling?
Roger Casale: Well, I may sound skeptical — and I am, philosophically speaking — but not in the sense of being Eurosceptic. Quite the opposite: I’m a firm believer in Europe’s support for Ukraine.
That said, I think it’s fair to critically examine what’s actually being promised — and what’s realistically going to be done.
One line that stayed with me came from Olena Zelenska, the First Lady of Ukraine. She quoted Lewis Carroll, saying: “You have to run just to stand still.” That summed up the conference for me. There was action, people were moving — even running — but it felt like we were running just to avoid falling backward. That’s not to say it wasn’t meaningful. But there was no sense of a real breakthrough.
Still, we shouldn’t be pessimistic. Russia is clearly not achieving its political objectives in this war — and there’s no prospect of it doing so in the foreseeable future. Yes, it has occupied territory, it’s terrorizing Ukrainian civilians, and it continues to destroy infrastructure. But strategically, it’s stuck.
We should have no illusions about what we’re facing. The European Court of Human Rights report — supported by the Dutch government in relation to the MH17 tragedy — documents the extent of Russia’s systematic human rights abuses: torture, rape, forced deportations of children. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
There was some good news from the U.S. — President Biden announced the use of the Presidential Drawdown Authority to release more air defense systems. That’s important in the short term. But what we need is long-term commitment.
At the conference, the U.S. Special Envoy to Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, delivered a mixed message. On the one hand, he said, “We are here with you.” On the other, he warned against expecting the U.S. to do everything. He also made a curious statement criticizing the global governance structures that have, for decades, ensured peace and stability — institutions like those behind the Marshall Plan.
I’m all for empowering the Ukrainian people, of course — but this is a massive undertaking. You don’t rebuild a country with goodwill alone. Over 6,000 participants from 70 countries attended the conference — that shows the scale of both the coalition and the challenge.
When people reference the Marshall Plan, they should remember what made it possible: a shared table, rational dialogue, reliable multilateral institutions. I fear we’ve lost that. It’s not just that the U.S. has stepped back — and yes, they’ve taken one step forward again at the conference, but before that, they took two steps back.
It’s not only about military or economic support. It’s also about trust — about having partners you can sit at the table with and make plans that others will stick to. And I do have some skepticism about whether the international community, including the American government, is really equipped right now to meet the scale of this crisis.
From pledges to progress: Investing in Ukraine’s recovery
Jabir Deralla: Listening to everything you’ve said — about Ukraine’s recovery, its resilience and resistance — I can’t help but think how closely it aligns with the core ideas behind the Westminster Alliance for Ukraine.
That’s a complex and timely initiative, recently launched in May in the UK Parliament, co-led by you and Alex Sobel. It feels as though the organizers of the conference had read the Defending Democracy and Human Rights report — the one right behind us — and its policy recommendations.
Those recommendations are so doable, so actionable. And yet, hesitation from some global powers — especially the United States, and at times within the EU — can feel discouraging. Still, from everything you’ve described — the conference, the British Ambassador’s event, and our ongoing work — I feel encouraged.
Let’s hope this all moves in a positive direction. And in that context, I’d like to ask you: The €11 billion in commitments sounds very promising, but how do we move from high-level pledges to long-term impact for communities on the ground? Do you have a recommendation — or even a vision — that you’d share with both our audience and the decision-makers who may be watching this?
Roger Casale: Yes, thank you, Jabir — I do. And you’re right to draw the link to the Westminster Alliance for Ukraine, which we launched in the UK Parliament on May 13. Our goal was to build a cross-party network of MPs dedicated to sustaining economic, military, and security support for Ukraine.
We’ve spoken earlier about the U.S. stepping back from a leadership role. That leaves a vacuum. And leadership — not in the sense of giving orders, but of developing strategy and taking responsibility — is what’s needed now.
What I saw at the Ukraine Recovery Conference wasn’t just the presence of parliamentarians — though that was important — but also businesses, civil society, local and regional governments. Everyone has a part to play in filling that leadership space. Leadership is teamwork.
Let me give a very practical example.
One of the big challenges was getting grain out of Ukraine when access to Black Sea ports was blocked. Solutions emerged — systems were developed, floating batteries were deployed on ships to power ports when local infrastructure was under attack. These mobile power systems cost upwards of $200 million. The problem? Insurance.
Who would insure those ships and energy systems under threat? I spoke with someone from Lloyd’s of London — and it’s clear that insurance, credit guarantees, and financial risk management are key to unlocking real investment.
It’s not about a lack of interest. Serious companies want to invest. They see opportunity in the new Ukraine — and not just opportunity for profit, but for partnership. Ukraine has expertise to share — in drones, digital resilience, and security — that Europe can learn from.
But investment still carries risk. That’s where governments can step in — like the UK’s Department for Business and Trade, which provides guarantees and support to exporters and investors. It’s about building systems that allow investment to happen now, not just later.
There’s also a strong need for alignment between governments, businesses, civil society, and — most importantly — local stakeholders in Ukraine. That means listening. That’s why it mattered that the Mayor of Lviv was present, and why initiatives by the EU’s Committee of the Regions and local partnerships are so crucial.
No contribution to Ukraine’s recovery is too small. Not everyone could be in the room for the whole conference — but every meaningful effort counts.
Decentralized recovery, reinvented democracy
Jabir Deralla: That sounds absolutely practical, doable, and very reasonable—logical, in fact.
I truly hope this approach will take hold—not just through this conference, but through other events happening now or in the future. And I might not be wrong to say: this feels like a turning point in how reconstruction is financed—and who drives it. Maybe the insights you’ve just shared will shape new trends in how war-torn societies are rebuilt. If I remember correctly, 186 Ukrainian communities presented around 300 local projects at the conference.
Are we now witnessing a shift toward decentralized recovery? Could this become one of Ukraine’s greatest strengths—possibly even a model of democratic rebuilding for other countries facing similar challenges?
Roger Casale: Yes, Jabir, I think that’s very well said. The model for Ukraine’s reconstruction is indeed shaping up to be highly decentralized—one that maximizes local and regional accountability rather than being entirely top-down. That’s one aspect.
But as Ukraine’s First Lady, Olena Zelenska, powerfully said: If we rebuild the people, we rebuild Ukraine.
So, I believe this reconstruction will also be Ukraine’s reinvention. And in that process, it will bring Ukraine much closer to Europe—possibly even into EU membership. But beyond that: the reinvention of Ukraine is also an opportunity to reinvent Europe. Because democratic renewal is needed not only in Ukraine—but across the continent.
We have a Democracy Action Plan in the EU that’s woefully out of date, especially after COVID, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and ongoing attacks on democratic values. Most people don’t even know it exists—it’s invisible and largely irrelevant in its current form. It needs a complete overhaul. Before that, we had the Conference on the Future of Europe—a one-off event that was never meaningfully followed up. Some ideas were taken forward, but the bigger opportunity—to truly make the European project a citizen-led one—remains unrealized. That work still needs to be done.
And so yes—the future of Ukraine is the future of Europe. Ukraine’s reinvention offers us a historic opportunity to renew European democracy as well. I want to see not only a free, peaceful, prosperous, sustainable Ukraine…
I want to see a deeply democratic Europe. Because today, those very values—freedom, democracy, human dignity—are under threat, not just in Ukraine or Europe, but all over the world.
A first step toward a new security order
Jabir Deralla: That’s wonderfully put—thank you for those words. Let’s now turn to the issue of defense. The announcement of the Multinational Force for Ukraine…
Is it merely symbolic reassurance, or could it be the first step toward a new kind of European security architecture? How do you see it?
Roger Casale: I see it more as the second: a step in the right direction. Many of your viewers might be surprised—some will know, but others won’t—just how limited the European Union’s military capacity really is. Aside from France and the UK—Britain of course no longer being in the EU but still a key part of the security architecture—there’s very little in terms of deployable capability. EU member states, along with the UK, have agreed to increase military expenditure. That’s encouraging, but it’s also easier said than done. And we need to build both public and parliamentary support to make it sustainable.
So yes, this is a step in the right direction. But if we can’t mobilize support for this first step, we risk slipping backward—and quickly—in the wrong direction.
I agree. And it’s good that we have a first step—because without it, there would be no direction at all. Still, we must also stress: We may not have the time that societies—and especially political elites—think they have to act. The clock is ticking. Decisions need to come faster.
Security, urgency, and the risks of complacency
Jabir Deralla: I agree—and it’s good that we have taken the first step. Without that, there would be no direction. But we also need to emphasize: we might not have as much time as political and decision-making elites think they have to act. We don’t know what’s happening in the corridors and war rooms of the Kremlin, or in other hostile capitals around the world.
So, building Europe’s security and defense architecture needs to be accelerated—before it’s too late, and before we suffer more casualties.
Roger Casale: I agree, it does need to be accelerated.
That said, I’d be cautious about using language like “we’re running out of time”. While I understand that sentiment—I share it myself—it’s important that we don’t appear to be trying to scare people into agreeing with us.
People want to see resources spent wisely, and not only on defense. And none of us knows the future. What we can do is work with what we do know.
We know that Russia is not achieving its political objectives in this war.
We know that the cost to Russia has been enormous—over a million casualties, by some estimates.
And we know the scale of Russia’s human rights abuses—many of which we already discussed earlier in this conversation.
Despite all the talk of ceasefires, or vague promises made in closed-door meetings or via third parties like Donald Trump, nothing concrete has materialized. This is likely to be a long, drawn-out conflict. And even once the violence ends, the broader struggle could go on for decades.
So yes, our job is to help Ukraine defend itself—not only at the front line, but to protect its civilians and its infrastructure from these brutal, ongoing attacks. It’s not just about resilience or morale. It’s about putting real defense mechanisms in place. But it’s also about us—Europe.
We must ask ourselves: Do we want to take the risk of thinking Russia is not a threat to the European Union and its member states?
Just a few days ago, a drone landed in Lithuania—presumably by mistake. But we know Putin’s habit of provoking situations just to see how the West reacts. Again, I don’t want to sound alarmist. I’m not suggesting Russia is about to invade Europe tomorrow. We don’t have evidence for that. We don’t know Putin’s next move.
But we do know enough to say this:
Alongside supporting Ukraine, we must be in a far better position to defend ourselves if such a scenario arises. We cannot afford to be complacent with a regime like this. We have to be prepared—for any eventuality.
And right now, we are not prepared.
Maybe we’re not “running out of time”—but we are running out of excuses not to act. What I’m saying is this: if a broader attack came tomorrow, we wouldn’t be ready. And I’d rather we be prepared—whether that day comes or not. That means we need to start acting—now.
Democracy, solidarity, and the shared future of Europe and Ukraine
Jabir Deralla: I totally agree. And just to clarify—when I say “we’re running out of time,” I don’t mean to sound alarmist, nor do I intend to change my position. But we are seeing clear signals from the Kremlin: Ukraine is not the first stop, and certainly not the last.
This regime in Moscow survives only through violence, terror, crimes against humanity—and genocidal policies.
So I would appeal to decision-making structures, civil society, media, and all those shaping democratic reality in Europe: stop wasting time on futile debates or attempts to appease terror regimes.
We must be effective, decisive, and look to the future in a more practical, moral, logical, and secure way.
Now, Roger—one final question: Where are we falling short—or are we on the right track? Can you summarize what this moment tells you about Europe’s future, with Ukraine in it?
What does Ukraine’s recovery effort tell us about the state of democracy and solidarity in Europe today?
Roger Casale: Thank you for the question. What I see is that people in Europe do understand and feel the pain of Ukrainians, especially under the constant nightly attacks. Many Europeans also admire the extraordinary resilience of the Ukrainian people—and see President Zelensky as a hero. And rightly so.
But at the same time, people are living their daily lives. It’s summer—some are enjoying time in the garden, sipping prosecco, spending time with family. They care about Ukraine, but they also worry about inflation, healthcare, jobs, and putting food on the table.
Europe is a continent of prosperity—but also of growing inequality. Many people are working and still poor. So while solidarity exists, we must go beyond sympathy.
And this is crucial: it’s not an either-or.
It’s not: “Either we help Ukraine or we help ourselves.”
These things are intertwined. A defeat for Ukraine is a defeat for Europe. And if we lose in Ukraine, life across Europe will worsen—on all fronts. Access to healthcare. Quality of education. Jobs. Wages. Housing. Safety. All of it will suffer.
So yes, we need governments to step up—but we, the public, must recognize our own responsibility as citizens. We must support Ukraine’s recovery and defense—not just in principle, but in action. There’s been talk of a “new Marshall Plan.” That’s helpful to focus the mind—but it’s more than that. This is about our shared future. We need to engage people, understand their concerns, and make sure they know: they have a stake in this.
Ursula von der Leyen said it well: “We are becoming stakeholders in the future of Ukraine.”
But that needs to reach every kitchen table in Europe. Every home. Every citizen. Until that happens, it will be difficult to fully deliver on Ukraine’s recovery—and on the future of democracy in Europe.
Jabir Deralla: Roger, these messages will surely reach many minds—and many hearts.
They speak not only to the Ukraine Recovery Conference in Rome, but also to the spirit and direction of the Westminster Alliance for Ukraine, and to the wider struggle to defend democracy and human rights—in Ukraine, in Europe, and around the world.
So let’s be smart and stop here—let this portion of our thoughts reach the audience and give space for reflection. We’ll save more for the next episode of Eyes on Democracy.
It was a real pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for your powerful insights and for sharing these important, often exclusive perspectives.
Roger Casale: Thank you for the opportunity to speak with your audience.
Credits
Authors: Roger Casale & Jabir Deralla
Video Editor: Arian Mehmeti
Production: CIVIL Media
Theme Music by: Transistor.fm – https://transistor.fm/
Send us your feedback: info@defendingdemocracy.global
Quotes
Roger Casale, is a former Labour MP and founder of New Europeans (New European People’s Forum) was in Rome and spoke to many of the participants. In this podcast, he gives his first hand impressions about the commitments made and the strategic priorities under discussion.
“We must build on the solidarity shown to renew our democracies even in these darkest days. We must make both Europe and Ukraine, more secure, more resilient and better able to defend our common values and way of life.”
Jabir Deralla is an award-winning journalist and the fouder of Civil- Center for Freedom. He was awarded the Order of Merit by President Zelensky for his work in countering disinformation and Russian propaganda.
“With billions pledged, local leaders stepping forward, and global partners showing renewed purpose — this isn’t just about rebuilding bridges and buildings. It’s about restoring hope, dignity, and democracy.”
(New Europeans People’s Forum)
